Comments for Clay Jones http://www.clayjones.net Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:36:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by DagoodS http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1401 DagoodS Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:36:42 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1401 Robert Leonardo, To clarify, this discussion centered around the Bible’s position on Free Will. I raised a question regarding information’s impact on free will. We touched on a few Bible passages. One was Gen 3:22 where God said only after Adam & Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil did they “know Good and Evil.” No one has responded to what the difference was between Adam’s knowledge prior to eating as compared to after, nor what characteristic of God Adam acquired by doing so. The closest thing was Dr. Jones claiming there were “levels of knowledge” without addressing what “level” Adam & Eve had before, and what “level” they had after, and how that then made them like God. I also raised the issue of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart (Ex. 4:21, 7:3, 9:12, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4. 14:8, 14:17) A difficulty recognized by Paul in Romans 9:17. No one addressed it beyond glib one-liners. I raised Mark 4;11-12, where Jesus specifically withheld information, and 2 Thess. 2:11 and 2 Kings 22:19-23 where God sends MISinformation. Those verses remained unaddressed. A robust and energetic discourse regarding the difficulties raised would have been welcome. Alas, instead of actually addressing the issues, raising arguments, or providing biblical support for countering position, I was told I “did not ‘leave Christ for honest intellectual reasons’” or I’ve “made myself God” or “cognitive dissonance” or “I think God is not fair” or I have a “hardened heart” or I have pride or…. More curious, I was informed “God gives enough information for those who want to believe…” making God’s actions [providing information] dependent on the human [their desire] in direct contradiction to Rom. 9:15-16. Need I say this contradiction was left unaddressed? I do not. Of course the greatest irony is that this discussion took place under a claim Earman misreads the Bible (I have no idea whether he does or not) where the skeptic (me) kept bringing up Bible passages, and the Christian response was to avoid those passages and give platitudes, placards and placebos. You all are free to make whatever claims you desire about my motivations, thoughts, desires, etc. *shrug* I’ve heard it all before. But likewise I am free to be amused by the Christian running away from the Bible verses the skeptic raises, and then informed it is I who engages in “cognitive dissonance.” Robert Leonardo,

To clarify, this discussion centered around the Bible’s position on Free Will.

I raised a question regarding information’s impact on free will. We touched on a few Bible passages. One was Gen 3:22 where God said only after Adam & Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil did they “know Good and Evil.” No one has responded to what the difference was between Adam’s knowledge prior to eating as compared to after, nor what characteristic of God Adam acquired by doing so. The closest thing was Dr. Jones claiming there were “levels of knowledge” without addressing what “level” Adam & Eve had before, and what “level” they had after, and how that then made them like God.

I also raised the issue of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart (Ex. 4:21, 7:3, 9:12, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4. 14:8, 14:17) A difficulty recognized by Paul in Romans 9:17.

No one addressed it beyond glib one-liners.

I raised Mark 4;11-12, where Jesus specifically withheld information, and 2 Thess. 2:11 and 2 Kings 22:19-23 where God sends MISinformation. Those verses remained unaddressed.

A robust and energetic discourse regarding the difficulties raised would have been welcome. Alas, instead of actually addressing the issues, raising arguments, or providing biblical support for countering position, I was told I “did not ‘leave Christ for honest intellectual reasons’” or I’ve “made myself God” or “cognitive dissonance” or “I think God is not fair” or I have a “hardened heart” or I have pride or….

More curious, I was informed “God gives enough information for those who want to believe…” making God’s actions [providing information] dependent on the human [their desire] in direct contradiction to Rom. 9:15-16. Need I say this contradiction was left unaddressed? I do not.

Of course the greatest irony is that this discussion took place under a claim Earman misreads the Bible (I have no idea whether he does or not) where the skeptic (me) kept bringing up Bible passages, and the Christian response was to avoid those passages and give platitudes, placards and placebos.

You all are free to make whatever claims you desire about my motivations, thoughts, desires, etc. *shrug* I’ve heard it all before. But likewise I am free to be amused by the Christian running away from the Bible verses the skeptic raises, and then informed it is I who engages in “cognitive dissonance.”

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem 4: Why Won’t We Abuse Free Will in Heaven? by clayjones http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-4-why-won%e2%80%99t-we-abuse-free-will-in-heaven/#comment-1400 clayjones Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:47:47 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=583#comment-1400 I suspect you will have a special relationship with your husband, Liz, but it won't be the married kind. Clay I suspect you will have a special relationship with your husband, Liz, but it won’t be the married kind.

Clay

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by clayjones http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1399 clayjones Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:45:46 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1399 Hi Peter, I'm sorry to hear that you gave up Christianity because you trusted your "common sense." You've made yourself God because you are the final arbiter about what is true in the universe. Eternal punishment is fitting for the eternally unrepentant. Clay Hi Peter,
I’m sorry to hear that you gave up Christianity because you trusted your “common sense.” You’ve made yourself God because you are the final arbiter about what is true in the universe. Eternal punishment is fitting for the eternally unrepentant.
Clay

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1398 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:59:09 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1398 DagoodS.... "God specifically “foreknew” before all ten plagues happened, Pharaoh would want to let the people go. And that God would have to take steps, hardening Pharaoh’s heart. (Ex. 4:21) Simply put, God knew Pharaoh would respond positively to the information, and God STILL would not let Pharaoh act in Pharaoh’s free will." This is not correct (please correct me if I am wrong) Dagoods makes a critically wrong assumption. "Pharaoh would want to let people go" No truly he did not, and that is why the idea of hardning the heart is used this phraseolgy does not mean that Pharaoh was a good guy just so much trying to help out these Hebrews, and really Repented of his prior ways...no. Also back to Adam and Eve another False Assumption you make. That Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge to make a decision regarding the tree/fruit. They did have the knowledge--enough to know God said dont touch...thats all they needed. DagoodS….

“God specifically “foreknew” before all ten plagues happened, Pharaoh would want to let the people go. And that God would have to take steps, hardening Pharaoh’s heart. (Ex. 4:21) Simply put, God knew Pharaoh would respond positively to the information, and God STILL would not let Pharaoh act in Pharaoh’s free will.”

This is not correct (please correct me if I am wrong) Dagoods makes a critically wrong assumption. “Pharaoh would want to let people go” No truly he did not, and that is why the idea of hardning the heart is used this phraseolgy does not mean that Pharaoh was a good guy just so much trying to help out these Hebrews, and really Repented of his prior ways…no.

Also back to Adam and Eve another False Assumption you make. That Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge to make a decision regarding the tree/fruit. They did have the knowledge–enough to know God said dont touch…thats all they needed.

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1397 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:41:29 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1397 Well, I may be wearing out my welcome here, and I hop I am not, but this is too juicy not to chime in and hopefully make some contribution worthy a momentary thought... or longer. But Dagoods, does make a point that I think we all have wondered about with initial two voices of authority and what did Adam and Eve know before vs after and relating it to free will--tuf inquiry if indeed I am understanding. First God knows who are his (We do not know such details in our parallel/Time tethered world--This is critically important to understand. As to the first couple, a deal of sorts between God and the Dragon--I have only to wonder, but it is these twin bookends that we humans work between. God told Adam and Eve all that they needed to know--dont eat from that tree. So free will in what we are told was a pre-sin world was truly free--yet the Will of mankind desired to be like God--just like the Will of the Dragon. Could it be the dynamic of the Dragon +Mans Free will (which God knew) was the elixer that delivered death, and after which post-edenic man had the curse of sin which was actually the desire to not only raise his will which he could do before, but now in a way completely detached from God... I realize this does not sound like much. But there is something that has to be differnt, that the holy spirit must bring back to mankind at least in a post cross world. I am still wrestling with some aspects of the free will that truly isnt free until God rescues man (salvation) which is what I tend to believe. But prior to that Man is a slave to sin, post eden and perhaps this all semantics, but this slave to sin is free will--because man left to himself less the garden is freely going to sin and destroy himself.... ok now I have confused myself--time for supper Well, I may be wearing out my welcome here, and I hop I am not, but this is too juicy not to chime in and hopefully make some contribution worthy a momentary thought… or longer. But Dagoods, does make a point that I think we all have wondered about with initial two voices of authority and what did Adam and Eve know before vs after and relating it to free will–tuf inquiry if indeed I am understanding.

First God knows who are his (We do not know such details in our parallel/Time tethered world–This is critically important to understand. As to the first couple, a deal of sorts between God and the Dragon–I have only to wonder, but it is these twin bookends that we humans work between. God told Adam and Eve all that they needed to know–dont eat from that tree.

So free will in what we are told was a pre-sin world was truly free–yet the Will of mankind desired to be like God–just like the Will of the Dragon. Could it be the dynamic of the Dragon +Mans Free will (which God knew) was the elixer that delivered death, and after which post-edenic man had the curse of sin which was actually the desire to not only raise his will which he could do before, but now in a way completely detached from God…

I realize this does not sound like much. But there is something that has to be differnt, that the holy spirit must bring back to mankind at least in a post cross world. I am still wrestling with some aspects of the free will that truly isnt free until God rescues man (salvation) which is what I tend to believe. But prior to that Man is a slave to sin, post eden and perhaps this all semantics, but this slave to sin is free will–because man left to himself less the garden is freely going to sin and destroy himself….

ok now I have confused myself–time for supper

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1396 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:12:35 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1396 Well Tim...so be it. Believe in Martians and obey them, Accept Hitler and obey Him, Believe in whatever and do whatever...live drink die..yea that is the ticket....No not really a great future is it. Maybe their is something here worth looking at, your conscience has already brought you here so follow through. Well Tim…so be it. Believe in Martians and obey them, Accept Hitler and obey Him, Believe in whatever and do whatever…live drink die..yea that is the ticket….No not really a great future is it. Maybe their is something here worth looking at, your conscience has already brought you here so follow through.

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1395 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:53:16 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1395 Spot On! Spot On!

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1394 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:52:13 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1394 Post-Modern tone...and @ Yes, my guess and Anita, although an old post will prob never hear back..do you believe in Correspondence Truth, reality..sounds snarky..not trying to be. Just I have an overly active antenna for post modern jive, and that "comment" stuck out Post-Modern tone…and @ Yes, my guess and Anita, although an old post will prob never hear back..do you believe in Correspondence Truth, reality..sounds snarky..not trying to be. Just I have an overly active antenna for post modern jive, and that “comment” stuck out

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Robert Leonardo http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1393 Robert Leonardo Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:45:06 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1393 Calvinism...Reverse ?....You can't have true saving Free-Will until God releases you too, by capturing you. A saved man has Free-will to choose not to sin. An unsaved man has no choice but to sin--so he does. Which I think you are saying thus he has no free will...? My thoughts on your thoughts. Calvinism…Reverse ?….You can’t have true saving Free-Will until God releases you too, by capturing you. A saved man has Free-will to choose not to sin. An unsaved man has no choice but to sin–so he does. Which I think you are saying thus he has no free will…?

My thoughts on your thoughts.

]]> Comment on Ehrman’s Problem: He Misreads the Bible and Impugns God’s Fairness by Peter http://www.clayjones.net/2012/01/ehrman%e2%80%99s-problem-he-misreads-the-bible-and-impugns-god%e2%80%99s-fairness/#comment-1392 Peter Fri, 17 Feb 2012 01:22:34 +0000 http://www.clayjones.net/?p=559#comment-1392 Hi Tim, I agree with your sentiments. Personally, the doctrine of hell has caused me to leave Christianity. I used to be a Bible literalist, fundamentalist Christian, but, I could never, ever justify the idea of hell. Reaping what we sow? Yes. Hell? No. It is amazing that as I see the Bible for what it actually is: ancient, barbaric myths told by a primitive war hungry, prejudice people, what I had actually ignored when I thought the Bible was from "God". Even when I was a Bible literalist, I would cry as I read the Bible, because, the tales in the Bible didn't match my own common sense and instincts of what love should be. Of course, Bible literalists will be quick to point out the verse: "Lean not on your own understanding....." However, I believe God gave me a brain and mind of reason, and, I had been guilty for so long of not using it. I am not a theologian or an avid intellect, yet, my own common sense tells me there are some major problems with Christian doctrine and the Bible. Hi Tim, I agree with your sentiments. Personally, the doctrine of hell has caused me to leave Christianity. I used to be a Bible literalist, fundamentalist Christian, but, I could never, ever justify the idea of hell. Reaping what we sow? Yes. Hell? No. It is amazing that as I see the Bible for what it actually is: ancient, barbaric myths told by a primitive war hungry, prejudice people, what I had actually ignored when I thought the Bible was from “God”. Even when I was a Bible literalist, I would cry as I read the Bible, because, the tales in the Bible didn’t match my own common sense and instincts of what love should be. Of course, Bible literalists will be quick to point out the verse: “Lean not on your own understanding…..” However, I believe God gave me a brain and mind of reason, and, I had been guilty for so long of not using it. I am not a theologian or an avid intellect, yet, my own common sense tells me there are some major problems with Christian doctrine and the Bible.

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